Curse

Avarre · Aug 25, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Sticks and stones, buddy. Your like or dislike of me does not alter the facts.

How ironic, I could say the same.

Quote:

Skill in GW is secondary to your build. That is why wikis make such a difference in GW, and are not used in any professional sport. You can consider yourself a better player than I, but irrespective of your opinions if you have a hammer warrior and I have a good anti-warrior necro build, any 1v1 match is a foregone conclusion. Build > Skill.

Wiki makes a difference to players that don't make a difference. Moving on...

This demonstrates the importance of skill balance. Firstly, GW is not balanced to 1v1, and is not meant to be - if you had any, even mentioning that as an example would destroy your credibility. Guild Wars is balanced to a team setup - a format which can handle a variety of situations, depending on the skill setup. Secondly, skill is vastly important in actually playing a build. The cause of this is skill selection and tactical play - the reason why skills like Searing Flames, which largely require the least skill for the most effect, are disliked.

A team build, when well played and co-ordinated, as an immensely larger effect. This is why in PvP the strongest guilds tend to run builds that are the most flexible - they can adapt to situations to cause the most effect rather than trying to simply brute-force their way through. An example of this is EvIL's prophecies build, or from more recently, the meta balance of 2w 1r 1me 2e 2mo. No specific skill is overpowered in this build, no combination 'broken' or from the wiki - the power in it is that player ability can magnify the capabilities of the build. Otherwise, you would see rank 1000s copying [rawr]'s build and giving them a solid fight.

Yes, a strong build is important, but for the most part players don't win through straight-out build domination (there are notable exceptions to this with regards to gimmicks, iB vs EW, winter tournament, etc) while the overall state of the game is balanced. Tactical play, co-ordination, maximization of skill use, and personal character skills like mitigation and targeting make an immense difference in the quality of a team.

While places to actually show skill are less prevalent in PvE (since direct force often wins against one-dimensional foes), there are still relevant points.

Quote:

And that equates to reading comprehension for PvE - do two runs through Ruins of Morah with and without "shields up" on a warrior in your party. Big difference, just from reading a wiki. So go ahead and make the case that "skill" can be defined in GW as picking the skills in your build. Not likely. That is why the FotM exists, right? Because someone finds a lucky combo by trial and error, and suddenly every tom, richard, and harry is bulldozing with it. Yeah, check out them FotMs in the basketball wiki. Heh heh.

Never used "Shields Up!" in that mission, never had to. Don't see why you would need it, unless you're trying to tank many mobs and Varesh without dodging spears? Protection magic and kiting works wonders.

The FotM exists because it is the easiest build to run that wins. A combination of flexibilities, sheer power, simplicity, and a variety of other things are involved in it - and yet as the FotM changes, the same teams tend to win. Sometimes the FotM based on a strong skill combo (triple smite), sometimes based on overall balance (current) - this often varies on the overall state of the metagame. Mostly, it depends on what people see being most effective. Yes, there is some buildwars in this, but once everyone, as you say, runs the 'bulldozing' build, it comes down to player skill again, in the great number of mirror-matches.

Since you seem so well learned, please point out the various 'lucky combos' in the current meta. Assuming you know it at all. After that, I'll be happy to watch you run it in the ATs against teams that don't run the meta. By your logic, since build > skill, and the meta is the best, you should win, yes?

In conclusion, you're funny.

TabascoSauce · Aug 25, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

I would say that you know more about PvP than I do, since the last time I spent any time active (and not watching) in PvP was well over a year ago. I like PvE better, and I am active in other online games. So I cannot match your challenge to tell you "current" meta builds by hands-on experience, since I am not there.

Your statement that 2 teams with equivalent builds will be determined by player skill is truth.

I think that the emphasis from ANet on skill balancing shows how powerful "skills" are in relation to player skill.

Your point that there is an element of player skill to GW is true. Where we disagree is in its importance. We both seem to agree player skill is more relevant in PvP than PvE. I am obviously in the camp that builds and wikis, when they can obviously increase player performance by simply recording builds, to me demonstrates the lack of depth of the game, specifically in PvE but also relevant in PvP.

If you want to believe that player skill is greater than builds, then *you* should take your show on the road in PvP, which you obviously prefer, and demonstrate that player skill can overcome inferior builds. That skill is paramount. If you have something to prove, then go prove it.

I'd be happy to watch your matches, and cheer you on.

Maybe our differences in opinion are due to your enjoying GW PvP and participation - I'd say that there is no way that you would admit that Build > Skill if you are the online equivalent of a GW PvP Athlete. Of course you'd say that skill is crucial, and to an extent you are right. That is what we disagree on, the extent.

Fair enough. I think I understand your point, and hopefully I have explained mine.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Qual · Aug 25, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

I don't like the whole idea of farming points in order to get better skils, but I don't really care either...

Avarre · Aug 25, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I am obviously in the camp that builds and wikis, when they can obviously increase player performance by simply recording builds, to me demonstrates the lack of depth of the game, specifically in PvE but also relevant in PvP.

I don't fully agree. The players that heavily rely on the wiki's are noticeably not great at the game - they can play one build they took, maybe, but have no idea why it works, have no capability to adapt with it, and their other player skills, such as positioning and mitigation, are weak. For example, I have played with many players that believe the best way to take less damage is to heal more, and there was the Mallyx group that decided air eles were good for damaging. Both ideas function on a misunderstanding of game mechanics, yet are fairly widespread. Much like the majority of concepts from wiki, these are very low-level ideas and won't allow a player to ever be good.

Guild Wars is the most noticeably wiki-affected simply because it's so easy to load up a build, which is so variable, and go. Most players in PuGs are judged by the skillbar they bring - judging how skills are used, however, is equally if not more important. You can say this is a lack of depth in that the majority of the visible aspect of a player is their skillbar, but the importance of how skills are used, in terms of selection and targeting, is typically much more important in the effects caused on the enemy (again, there are some skills that are one-dimensional enough to ignore this).

The fact that two of the same build can be played so differently for different effect, or two completely different builds can be played to similar effects, that is game depth from how players in teams can work. Versatility in team play is, indeed, less prevalent in PvE, but the depth of what you can do is still there. Unfortunately, so long as enemies are one-dimensional players can only do so much, and the extent is limited.

Qual · Aug 25, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

I'll say this once then I'll leave this thread and not look back...

Bottom line: Hardcore players *should* be rewarded for their extra efforts. Hardcore players will always have more items/loot/skills etc than the casual gamer, but that's never been an issue with GWs as all the benefits to grinding are purely aesthetic.

So our 'reward' for playing like manics is a slight buff to some PvE (the magic acronym) only skills.. wow, I can see how two seconds/points of damage/etc.. is worth all of these tears..

Point is, the increase give by SS/Lb are extremely minimal and PvE is not a contest so it doesn't matter, regardless.

-

If anet were implementing elite areas for those with full titles, pvp skills, or extra dmg weapons and such, I could understand the uproar....

Some of you guys expect everything handed to you on a plate, and when those of us that play(ed) this game like a religion finally get something to show for it (something ever so slight in the grand scheme of it all), you throw your toys out of the pram.

Lots of damp shoulders about these days...

wauw, this post just changed my point of view....

Zubrowka · Aug 26, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

The grinders, well, they are entitlement monkeys. Good for them, they spent 2800+ hours in a game that in a few years, ANet will pull the plug and everything they did will go up *poof* in a puff of smoke. So what, ANet chooses to reward this same crowd that thinks the game is too easy with an adrenaline based +100 armor party wide? No, no, no, bad idea. Give them a snazzy title, or a fancy, glowing neon rotating sign in-game over their heads that they have no life other than GW.

ANet is simply making the problem worse by giving grinders who breeze through the game, skills that make it even easier.

Grinders are basically workaholics. They think they're playing a game but what they really want is a work simulator. Getting "rewards" for time and labor spent--that's the very definition of work. There's no way you can get around that. If you want be "rewarded" from spending time in a game, then it's no longer a game: it is work. Real gamers don't want work. They play games to have fun. The diconomy presented by the OP between hardcore gamers vs. casual ones is bogus. People don't want to grind not because they're casual. They don't want to grind because it's freaking stupid.

4ssassin · Aug 26, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

First off, Zubrowka, That is exactly what I tell people. If I want to grind for rewards, I'll go to work and make some REAL money.

Now let me tell you guys a story, about a kid who got his first gaming computer.
When he got this gaming computer, he was very happy. But, he had no games. So naturally he pulled out some magazines, and on reading one about 8 months old, he cam across an ad for Guild Wars. In this ad was a warrior standing over another dead warrior. The warrior standing had much, much less play time than the dead one. Then the slogan ran "Guild Wars, an MMO that rewards skill, not time spent."

"Cool!" says the kid. Thats the game for me! So the next game he goes and picks up Guild Wars Prophcies, and its everything he thought it was. Sure, it took awhile to get used to it, but within a month he had max armor, a green hammer, and was playin as an equal with the rest of the community, both in pve and some pvp. (The kid never did play HA, not liking the elitism.)

The kid also didnt like guilds too much, finding them very bothersim, and requiring alot of work to keep the people in them happy. He still plays solo.

Time passed, and Guild Wars Factions came out, which of course he bought and played. This was even better it seemed, with great xp rewards, and being able to get new skills faster. When he got to the kurzick side (his favorite color was blue after all.) He had to do a bit of grind. Now, the kid HATES grind; but it was a very small amount, and after all, everyone else had to do it.

Then in an update, Ane decided to implement titles. The kid was confused by these titles. These did not reward skill over time. These did the exact opposite, the people that played more would be alot more fancy. But, he didnt mind too much, after all, the titles where just like FoW armor: fancy, cool, but not needed to be good, and didnt make him any worse off.

Then Anet made some titles influnece the game. This confused the kid even more: now these people that had grinded these titles just for vanity would have a fairly distinct advantange. Being able to salvage things twice? And still maybe keep the weapon? Why, now the chest runner will get even richer. The kid was saddened by this, but again, he got over it. He had plenty of money saved from his questing, and the fact that he didnt need anything fancy, and didnt hardly buy anything but salvage kits and ID kits. The kid continued to play, enjoying the game.

Then nightfall came out, and the kid, still loyal to Anet, got the game. Heros sounded cool! His warrior hero will be a quivering blade spammer, yay!

But NF brought even more grind. He had to grind to get through part of the game yet again. And, what was worse, is the people that grinded the LB title would be doing much,much more damage than him, and they would be more wanted than him. To make it worse, the high level area was so hard he couldnt get a group, for the kid had vocal problems, and would be little use on a mic. The kid forgot ever being able to play in the high end area. He could get groups in the lower areas, but few people wanted him since he had such a low LB title. (When the kid heard that some people got max LB with no effort to through an exploit that was later removed, he was very angry)
The kid played through NF, and then went back to play in the low level pvp that is factions. 12v12 battles? defending a fort from evil invaders? The kid loved these things.

Now the kid is playing the GWEN sneak peek. He sees that all of his money he saved to maybe set 1 little set of fancy armor, isnt spendable...he must grind titles to get it. 50/70 new skills his character could get are also of very little use, for they must be grinded to be any good. And the HoM made him very sad.

Ah, the weapon momemnt. The fact that he had unlocked all the items with balth faction should come to play here. Or maybe his pride and joy, a req9 perfect Zodaic staff, could be displayed here. Maybe even his chaos and gothic weapons. But no...he must grind and farm or buy new, GWEN weapons

Ah, heros then! Surely the fact that the kid had every single hero across all 3 campagins would be recognized? But no..only koss was, for the kid had once splurged to make his favorite hero look better.

Ah, the armor. Surely his unique blend of kurzick/prophecies/primeval armor would be given a place. But no..only full sets are allowed there...

Well....its not much, but maybe his few minipets: jade armor, juggernaunt, whiptail. could be added? Ah, but only if he didnt mind none of his other characters being allowed to use them.

Well..the kid didnt like title grind, but he didnt mind afking for that spiffy unlucky title, that he was rank 3 in. oh....it is only for very high pvp titles...and not any of the pvp that he enjoyed...

The kid is very sad with Guild Wars now.....he faintly remembers "skill, not time played", and wonders....where that ideal went.....